Patrick Dunne OBE, experienced Chair and Board member, and co-author of “Five Generations at Work”, is one of MAD World’s closing keynote speakers at this year’s Leaders Summit on 9th October in London (to see the full agenda and register, click here).
He’ll be talking about the challenging issue of multigenerational working, and sharing his experience of what works best. We spoke to him ahead of his appearance about this issue, and also another of his specialist subjects – working with boards (he’s also written an award-winning book called ‘Boards’).
Look out for Patrick, too, on our Make A Difference Leaders Podcast, out now! You can find it on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Over to Patrick…
Why do you feel so strongly about the multigenerational workforce, to the point you co-wrote an entire book about this topic?
I grew up up in a very cosmopolitan part of Liverpool and learnt a ton from people of all ages. From those younger to me to those much older than me.
We had big African, Afro Caribbean, Chinese and Irish communities and there was a solidarity between us, as well as challenges. I always remember my mum saying ‘Patrick, people are just people and it doesn’t matter how odd they seem to behave towards you, or how difficult they are, they’re probably trying to do their best in their situation’.
My grandmother, when she visited from Dublin, was full of one-liners like the one I remember most: ‘it’s really important to listen to what people say, Patrick, but even more important to listen to what they think’.
I often think, today, we don’t take enough time to try and understand what people who are different to us think and feel – whether that difference be age, gender, race social mobility, or whatever.
When it comes to multigenerational workforces, the reason I co-wrote a book on it is because I was really fed up, and irritated, by the discourse around generations and the nonsense being spoken about minor differences. At the same time in my work, I’ve had fantastic experiences with multigenerational teams.
As a society it feels that we’ve lost that appreciation of what other generations contribute. The book is an attempt to get some of that back.
Why do you think we’ve lost that appreciation for different generations?
It’s multifactorial.
There are many reasons why we’ve ended up in this more divided, divisive world.
But working with many different businesses, I’ve seen how to harness a multigenerational workforce in a positive way, to maximise the benefit of having five generations together. Multigenerations at work are here to stay. So at a basic level we are going to have to get on with each other because we need each other. But we can aim higher than that. We can seek to maximise the opportunities that flow from it.
Can you give me an example of where you achieved more in a business due to a multigenerational workforce that worked well together?
Yes, at the EY Foundation, which I chaired for it’s first ten years. The foundation is all about social mobility and focussed on young people on free school meals, or who are care experienced.
We had a nextgen board right from the start and we would not have had the impact we had without it. There are loads of good examples in the book, too. Rebecca Robins, who I co-wrote the book with, was chair of our Nomcom which oversaw the development of our Nextgen board. The insight, challenge, innovation and legitimacy with key stakeholders they contributed was incredible.
Given your embracing of difference, what do you think of the current backlash, in some parts, against DEI?
Well, let’s think about what DEI means. Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. Is that dead?
The world is diverse and workplaces increasingly so. Equity is about fairness in all its dimensions from opportunity to how we behave. An inclusive and collaborative approach to leadership tends to maximise the potential of individuals, teams and organisations as a whole.
So, I think that those companies that think these three things are dead are going to lose out massively competitively and those who think they are very much alive and increasingly important will be the winners.
Why?
Diversity is a stimulant for innovation and creativity. It’s also a magnet for recruiting talent.
So, if you’re a company saying that DEI is dead, you are essentially saying that you don’t want to maximise innovation and you don’t want to be a magnet for talent. Moreover you are going to deter talent and encourage groupthink.
With regard to equity and I know this from deep personal experience; if your people feel you’ve treated them inequitably, you will pay for that in the end. Equity and equal opportunities are massively important.
As for inclusive leaders, they get better results and, actually, have a lot less hassle in their jobs. If people feel excluded, they don’t perform as well. They work in isolation, rather than for the good of the team.
Yes, it’s a big challenge in our world to create truly inclusive teams but leaders have to because it makes business sense. It’s also much more fun to feel part of an inclusive team playing to our strengths and being supported by others who are stronger in other aspects.
Sometimes Health and Wellbeing professionals struggle to make that business case. You’ve also written a book called ‘Boards’. What advice do you have about getting buy-in from the board?
Many do already but when they don’t it’s often because they’re having the wrong conversation. Assuming the vision and purpose of the organisation are clear, then the role of the board is to ensure you’ve got the right strategy, resources and governance. So the conversation needs to be about how health and wellbeing will support those three things. Which is great because they do!
A focus on activity that will maximise Health and Wellbeing and build a strong culture, one of the most important resources an organisation has. It’s the right thing to do, but I would never argue to the board on the basis of moral argument. I’d always tell them ‘do this because you’ll make more money and it’s the right thing to do’.
They want to know that this strategy will mean a more highly engaged workforce and supply chain, a more resilient business with no legal, environmental, tax or other issues. If you want to maximise the value when you sell your business or IPO it why would you want to have DEI or ESG issues and undermine the valuation?
So, I’d be talking about things like how it will lead to attracting the right and better people. Today’s more transactional nature of employment is a great tragedy and I think employers are paying for it.
What do you mean that the transactional nature of employment has been a tragedy?
Telling employees that you want them to do this job but you don’t mind if they leave and you’re not going to invest in them, creates the wrong mentality.
I’ve had conversations with employers that have complained about the lack of loyalty from their younger workers – and I’ve said ‘you’re moaning about people you have on zero contracts, given minimal training to and treat like a commodity. How can you expect loyalty if you do that and don’t invest in them?’ Obviously employees need to invest in the relationship as well and have realistic expectations. The point is both sides of this equation need to do so.
Increasingly, talented employees have a choice between an employer that is inclusive and will invest in them, and one that doesn’t and they’re going to pick the one that does. Look at churn rates if you want some evidence.
Any other quick top tips about board buy-in before you go?
Yes. Don’t wait to get into the boardroom to get to know board members. Take time to get to know the board individually and treat them as humans, with respect and an interest in where they’re coming from.
A good Chair, will welcome you getting in touch before a board meeting and asking if there’s anything they’d like you to focus on particularly. Or even asking what they think is the best way to get a good discussion going on a key point. There’s nothing to stop you doing that other as long as you ensure your CEO knows you are going to do it and is supportive. I would never turn down a call like that. Having that rapport may also ease any anxiety you may have about a board meeting or make you aware of sensitivities you didn’t know about.
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